A lot of people like to take an Elliott wave analyst out to the woodshed and beat them into a fine mixture of compost. I want to take this opportunity to do it myself, and save you all the trouble. As you know, I originally started counting the move from the 14 May bottom as a corrective move. So, how in the world, does this analyst get off now potentially calling the up wave as an impulse? This seems like "snake oil" at best or maybe "dishonesty" at worst. Contrary to many paid services, when I make a mistake of some significant kind I like to examine where I went wrong and why, especially to see if degree labels were violated somewhere. Hopefully, I can learn from it.
In the spirit of learning, let me remind you of my initial count from the low.
ES Futures - 5 Min - Corrective From May 14th Low |
Now, to be honest, you have to remember I was highly focused on that ((A)) wave on the one minute chart and showing you how to count that wave without violating degree labels. To refresh your memory, refer to this CHART.
Working on such a small time scale as the linked chart, above, can really cause some stress and myopia, but that was not the problem. The chart below shows what I missed at the low.
ES Futures - 5 Min - Missed Diagonal |
Those first three waves were, in fact, an a-b-c sequence. But they were a-b-c of ((1)) in a larger contracting leading diagonal that completed after the regular session. Notice that all the needed requirements of a diagonal are met: ((5)) is less than ((3)) in price and time, and ((3)) is less than ((1)) in price and time, and ((4)) is less than ((2)) in price and time, and overlaps wave ((1)).
The reason I am taking the time to show you these charts in this detail is strictly for learning. People scream at me, "You find too many diagonals!" Well - you know what - I missed this one, and it had a large opportunity cost (upward trades not taken).
But mostly, I show you these charts so you can learn something too. Did you find the diagonal? Did you care? Or, like other charting 'professionals' with paid services, did you just ignore degree labeling and say (literally), "Um.. it looks impulsive". No, not an impulse - a diagonal. And, as a diagonal, it meets all degree labeling requirements.
And, then the wave following (which in the cash S&P did not overlap, and I said, "it didn't overlap - do you trust it?") had to be some kind of flat wave, or compound flat wave as it did overlap in the ES futures.
So, now you know. An error was made because I was trying to help show you short term degree labeling. And the results of such efforts was a mistake made in the type of upward direction. Is that honest enough? Does anyone else on the web give you that * for free *?
Hope it helps,
TraderJoe
no problem Joe we all make mistakes - how does this affect the long term picture? Are we currently in a wave 2 downward trajectory then?
ReplyDeleteHi mobes .. no. I'm not quite sure why you are having problems following what I wrote last night relative to the longer term. (See the first chart in last night's post, and the explanation). We are trying to see if that (a) wave up, on the daily chart is done, yet, or not.
DeleteHere is an hourly chart, to try to show you better this potential (a) wave count from start to finish.
https://invst.ly/qw1ij
We are now in what 'may be' a triangle. We are trying to see if the fifth wave up will form properly - meaning a thrust up out of the triangle. If it doesn't it means that there may have been a small truncation at last night's high.
This reply explains only that wave "i" in the hourly chart and why a mistake was made initially calling it corrective.
TJ
Appreciate the transparency Joe.
ReplyDeleteFrankly, the biggest discouragement many of us face in trying to become proficient in trying to learn how to properly count waves is the blatant dishonesty of some practitioners...always an excuse, rarely an explanation...
..welcome .. and I will try not to let proficiency blind me to a larger picture in the future.
DeleteAppreciate your help in understanding joe, I did notice you put alot of hard work into daily analysis versus a weekly or biweekly forecast. Maybe some more emphasis on a longer term picture could help
ReplyDeleteIn the future, do not expect a reply to the "Unknown" account.
DeleteActually, I had a 'bigger picture' in mind, remember? That Minuet (ii), up, was not done yet. The 'bigger picture' at least temporarily influenced my judgement on the short term; enough to miss the diagonal.
As always Joe, thank you for your hard word work, and also, in this post for your candor.
ReplyDeleteRecently you said that it was too bad that there was no 10 minute chart option. This raised a question:
When counting a potential impulse and you face the choice of a chart with 170-180 bars (distorting the EWO in one direction), or the next highest timeframe, where there are only 85-90 bars, which one do you think is best?
Math can help you chose.
Delete180 - 160 = 20; (20 / 160) x 100 = 12.5% error
120 - 90 = 30; (30 / 120) x 100 = 25.0% error
TJ
Thanks, Joe.
DeleteWorking from the revised count, it would appear that an expanded flat second wave awaits a C down for completion?
ReplyDeleteIffen the triangle in this link invalidates:
Deletehttps://invst.ly/qw1xb
Then, the next best - as previously stated - is the flat.
TJ
Danka...
DeleteReally? I have not read your blog for some time but honestly how could you miss the obvious A-B-C (flat in sp500) started April 29 and ended May 14???? It was clear for me that the new impulse would follow. Regarding the leading diagonal you found. Remember the Neely's book? He declared the important principle that the subsequent pattern must confirm the previous one. In your case the leading diagonal should be followed by a deep retracement to set a stage for an explosive wave 3. But such a deep retracement is not observed on the charts
ReplyDeleteSo Oleg are we in a wave 2 impulse retracement right now before the explosive wave 3?
Delete"For some time"?? The flat is clearly labeled on even yesterday's chart. I didn't missed the flat. I called the end of the wave down, which turned out to be a (c) wave of the ((a)) wave of the flat. The diagonal did have a deep retracement overnight and into the next day. You, sir, are way, way off base.
DeleteNot only is the flat clearly labelled, as I recall, it was called in real time as it unfolded...
DeleteTrader Joe,
ReplyDeleteThank you for all your hard work and don't stop finding those diagonals!
Take care,
Kevin
see 7:51 am, below.
DeleteHere's a real time set up I am looking at in GOLD, involving another diagonal. Overlap at (a) would provide a high degree of confidence of an (a) wave, and not a (i) wave.
ReplyDeletehttps://invst.ly/qwcm0
TJ
...and overlap on the upward (a) wave just occurred in 15-min GOLD in real time.
Deletehttps://invst.ly/qwcr-
TJ
This suggests to GOLD bugs to be very, very cautious on the upside, as the top may be in for GOLD, with the contracting ending diagonal I published in the comments (to BBRider) a couple of days ago.
Deleteweekly/daily bear divergences have been screaming this for weeks. I think they have started to play out. Thank you
Delete..and at the moment, GOLD has only three waves down, and what 'looks like' five-up; so the overlap suggests the market is not impulsing, and might make a double-zz upward.
Deletehttps://invst.ly/qwdrt
..possibly a lot of whipping around today in lighter holiday markets.
TJ
Trader Joe,
DeleteThank you for the update,I'm waiting for the count to become more clear
@Roberto, @Kevin - welcome.
DeleteWant to see if Im thinking clearly (lol). From Wed's chart, starting from ((A)), the overnight completed flat could be either: (?)
ReplyDelete1. w4 of 5 of (a) or
2. where (a) is actually (w), the flat could be (x), with (y) to follow for ((B))
Thanks
Joe on my charts the A leg of the diagonal was taken out last night by 2 tics. Does that invalidate it?
ReplyDeletewhich chart .. which time-frame? I can't be expected to read minds.
Delete60 min ES my real time data feed is Ninja
DeleteTJ - your Elliott work is usually spot on, but one thing I learned since I've been using EW (36 yrs) is that it's easy to get a count wrong occasionally - not to worry, it happens to all of us - I do appreciate your honesty
ReplyDeletethx for saying, and being encouraging.
DeleteAccording to Trading-View's data, last night there was an expanding diagonal to the downside. It DID NOT overlap the ES-hourly wave i. So, it 'could' still be the fourth wave of the (a) wave up.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.tradingview.com/x/0A3aXDPU/
Or the (a) wave up ended in truncation. I hate these whippy diagonals as much as the next person. But one must learn to deal with them.
TJ
This would be the continuing impulse wave, but it would need to make at least a slight new high over iii. There is no downward overlap (which could change with a news story).
Deletehttps://invst.ly/qwey1
Because this wave is so long in 'time extent' and not in price extent, the alternate is shown at the bottom in red, as alt: (a) with an arrow to where the NQ made a higher high.
TJ
gday ET... i wonder if the move from the 2760 low can be the entire (b) wave ? of coure, in that case it would have to count as a :3 and not a :5...
Deletethanks
joske
@joske .. hello .. yes, it could "just barely" be a (b) wave down in the ES. If it were, it would be counted as the equal & opposite expanding triple zigzag three-wave count, instead of the expanding diagonal five-wave count. This is a problem inherent to 3:3:3:3:3 diagonals: they can either be leading or ending. And one can't tell for sure until the beginning or ending of the diagonal has been crossed.
DeleteI will say that if it is all of the (b) wave down, it is fairly short at 38.2% - 50%. Yes, still, definitely legal. And, as I stated above, the "time taken" for this pattern to form is what makes one consider the (a) alternate at the prior high.
Hope this helps,
TJ
TJ,
Deleteeasy question: you have mentioned that a-b-c is the same as 1-2-3 until it is not. Aren't Wave b and 2 different on the aspect that wave b can be up to 1.6xA but wave 2 can only retrace up to wave 1. Simple answer will suffice. Tx!
The equivalence of 1,2,3 and a,b,c is only when counting an impulse. When b is 1.62 x A, it is in a FLAT or running triangle. So, no.
DeleteAny further clues on whether the alt A is correct or not?
ReplyDeleteI wish .. so far, it is noon, and all we have is a "doji day", with a roughly equal open and close. On a different subject, have you read the material I published on "A Paraphrase of Ira Epstein's Guidelines for Trading"? If not I will give you the link.
DeleteNo I haven't read that please send thanks
DeleteParaphrase of Ira Epstein's Guidelines for Trading
Deletehttps://studyofcycles.blogspot.com/2015/11/paraphrase-of-ira-epsteins-rules-for.html
TJ
Thank you TJ!
Deleteyw, Luc.
DeleteThanks TJ much appreciated
Deletewelcome .. mobes.
DeleteThere is now some upward (red) overlap on the GOLD 15-min chart.
ReplyDeletehttps://invst.ly/qwgge
So, it suggests this is a (b) wave in the double-zz or we are working on a longer, more drawn out (b) wave triangle.
TJ
In the ES 5-min futures, the primary wave-counting edge I see at the moment is this: since this morning's down wave only made a 38.2% retracement, and after the newest up wave, price was turned back by 2,952, including downward overlap. Then look to see if 1.382 holds as a possible "b" wave up, for a better second wave down.
ReplyDeleteIf it doesn't hold, then from a wave-counting standpoint resume upward counting.
https://invst.ly/qwhss
TJ
so is the "a" wave close to completion
ReplyDeleteThe ES 5-min settled dead on 2,952.50; 'maybe' there will be an expanded flat down to 2,915 to 2,930 for a better second wave.
ReplyDeleteThe other way to see the up wave is as this contracting diagonal - which could still do with a bit of a retrace. The diagonal is in magenta.
Then, there is a straight on 1-2-i-ii shown in black.
https://invst.ly/qwigc
It's kind of a 'pick your poison', although the EWO says the wave is 'currently' diverging all the way up, and it would lean, at this time, to the diagonal.
TJ
Further, from what I can see, a diagonal would invalidate above 2,960.50 and require the 1,2,i,ii count. So, that becomes an easy task to monitor in the overnight hours over the holiday weekend.
DeleteThere is no downward wave starting until or unless 2,938 is first broken to the down side.
Hope this helps.
TJ
Ok thanks TJ. Any insight on how soon the dreaded wave c might begin? Minute ii from last week appears to have blown up lol
DeleteThe Unknown account is not replied to.
DeleteGOLD 15-min went 'dead-sideways' for the remainder of the entire day. Smaller and larger triangles still possible.
ReplyDeletehttps://invst.ly/qwigx
TJ
Ok thanks TJ. Any insight on how soon the dreaded wave c might begin? Minute ii from last week appears to have blown up lol
ReplyDeleteJoe, thanks a million. For everything you did.
ReplyDeleteThere is a new post for the weekend.
ReplyDelete