Saturday, December 1, 2018

What May Be Next

(Fyi - there is a Friday post, too, if you have not already seen it).

Some people are visual thinkers. They can understand something better when they can see a picture or two. Other people are verbal thinkers. It's the words that matter most to them. Primarily for the former group, we will try to help clarify what 'may' be next in the wave count.

On Friday's chart, we counted five waves up, most likely to an 'a' wave. Through the comments and the discussion, we ruled out an alternate at this point in time. Interestingly, and separately, yesterday a major Elliott Wave service also counted five-waves up - but to a ((c)) wave of a Minor 2 Flat. The point is not their count. The point is we agreed on 'five waves up'. Nice. Who says, "if you put 10 Elliott analysts in a room ... ??!!"

If Friday did indeed end all or most of an a wave up, then this is what might be next for the market. We would first expect a b wave down. This b wave down could be a relatively simple wave, like a zigzag, or a flat, or it could take the form of a more complicated and time-consuming triangle. (See first inset on chart).

S&P500 Cash Index - Daily - Double Zigzag?

Then, after the b wave down, there should be a c wave up to the (y) wave of minute ((ii)). This would be the double zigzag count for the minute ((ii)) wave.  The purpose of the triangle would be to inform us that, "the last wave in the entire upward sequence is dead ahead - after the triangle."

If the b wave should turn out to be a triangle, then the c wave would most likely be only a sharp thrust up out of the triangle - a five wave sequence in which the fifth wave must be allowed to fail, because it would be a terminal c wave. It doesn't have to fail, but failure must be allowed.

If the b wave should turn out not to be a triangle - and it is more simple like a zigzag or a flat - then it is possible for the c wave to become an ugly overlapping diagonal wave. (See second inset on the chart). That is because it would not be next door to it's cousin pattern, the triangle.

If the diagonal forms, it's purpose would literally be to scream from the rooftops that "I am the last five wave sequence in the upward direction for a very long time." And, since it would be a terminal c wave, then it's fifth wave must be allowed to fail, as well. Again, it doesn't have to. There could be the typical 'throw-over' of the fifth wave of the diagonal, as we have drawn in the chart, but it must be allowed to fail given it's position in the wave structure.

The reason this post is titled "What May Be Next" is that these are two alternate scenarios, both of which are allowed by the normal and usual rules of Elliott Wave analysis. Which will come to pass, I have no advance way of knowing yet.

What I do know is that a major Elliott Wave service yesterday called a significant top, and there is very, very little price evidence for it on the chart. Daily price is still above the SMA-18, and thus has positive bias. The daily slow stochastic is in over-bought territory now, but it has not curled over yet. And, in terms of candle patterns, there is no outside key reversal bar, no inverted hammer candle, not even a Doji at yesterday's high. Further, there isn't even an upward wave that has failed in the five-wave-up-structure that we showed in yesterday's post. So, it seems very, very odd to me that they would do that. Further, a tool we respect a lot - the Elliott Wave Oscillator - on the daily chart has not gone above the zero line to indicate unequivocally a second wave up. Does it have to? No. Could it? It most certainly could and often does.

Yes, I am on alert for a big down-turn. But, I am still trying to count diligently - with measurement only and not opinion -  and use technical analysis, and not just wave counting, to help inform us of the nature of the structure. And, yes, I am exceptionally cautious here. Never hear that I wasn't.

In that regard, for the double-zigzag count price may not travel below the low of the (x) wave shown or it would invalidate the double zigzag. Yes, unfortunately, the risk of a wrong wave count here continues to grow, and objectively speaking, one can not completely rule in or out the upward progress until the low of (x) is exceeded, or unless higher highs are made. That's just the nature of Elliott Wave analysis, and we have to peaceably accept that as it is.

So, we'll see how it all turns out. Perhaps along the way, there will be some time or degree considerations that can better inform us of the structures being made.

In that regard, what I can say is that the whole purpose of a double zigzag would be to make wave minute ((ii)) longer in time. I had shown in an earlier post that the waves up to (w) only took 38% of the time of the downward minute ((i)) wave. That was an absolute 'minimum' amount of time being consumed. If the double zigzag forms, then minute ((ii)) would exceed minute ((i)) in terms of the length of time spent in the whole retracement. That's what occurred at the 2009 bottom, between Intermediate (1) and Intermediate (2). Let's see if that happens here, too.

Until then, stay on your toes, and have a good weekend.
TraderJoe

50 comments:

  1. The cash market will be closed on Wednesday 12/3/18 for national day of mourning for George H.W. Bush. I assume that the futures markets will be open during their usual hours.

    No one can know what might happen or take this into account at this time, but it may be interesting to see what happens between Tuesday and Thursday.

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    1. Thanks for advising the readers of that.

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    2. This comment has been removed by the author.

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    3. Kelly 12/3/18 is monday, I think you wanted to say 12/5/18.

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  2. if (x) is taken out and double zigzag no longer valid what would be the next best count?

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    1. Nah .. first you have to tell me how & why (x) is taken out.

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  3. Joe, Your degree labeling answer December 1, 2018 at 2:16 PM in the 11/30 comments causes me to ask which system you prefer. I have found more than one system online.

    Since we pretty much deal with Primary down to Minuette on a day-to-day basis, I've found two sets of labels that seem to be used on many websites (I'm not posting them so as not to create confusion). Because you're using double parentheses to indicate circled labels on your charts, I sense that you have a slightly different system.

    Please post a link or copy and paste the label system from Primary down to Minuette that you use, so we can sync to it when asking questions. Thank you.

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    1. O'Kelly .. I have answered this question many times already. So many people use Stockcharts.com, that I am using the labeling system used by them: which is the same degree labeling system used by major Elliott Wave services. You can find the degree labeling system on this page.

      https://stockcharts.com/school/doku.php?id=chart_school:market_analysis:identifying_elliott_wave_patterns

      I consider this to be the 'official' degree labeling system, and anyone else's to be incorrect.

      Copy and paste to your browser if needed. The only difference in the symbology is that in 'text' the double-parentheses means 'circle', which is available in some but not all software programs.

      I will do my best to avoid confusion on the daily charts from here forward by using these official degree designations. But, when working quickly on the intraday charts, for example, I reserve the right to use degree symbols which are only indicative of 'relative' degree labeling, and I will correct on daily charts later.

      Whew!

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    2. Thank you very much, Joe. Being a newcomer to your blog, I didn't realize that you'd posted it before. I completely understand that 'in the heat of battle,' some labeling might be relative and not perfectly conform to the Stockcharts labeling. Thanks again!

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  4. Joe,
    I listened to the Neely interview you mentioned. Thank you. This is a must hear for anyone attempting EWT so I am going to post the address again at the end of this post for those who might have missed it.
    The most important aspect that hit home for me as regards trading profitability was the time discussion. I can't count how many times I have entered trades after a 3 wave correction only to find out it was only leg 1 of a larger correction and was stopped out or lost on the trade. With the time requirements Neely mentioned many of those trades would have been filtered out. I urge anyone who sees this post to listen to this interview.
    Here is the link:

    https://www.neowave.com/interviews/interview-201710.asp

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    1. The really good news is that just below it there's a transcript link (https://www.neowave.com/audiointerviews/201710/transcript.pdf) for people like me who can't remember everything from audio/video presentations and need to refer back to text when counting (lol).

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  5. PRICE, PATTERN, TIME
    Since my post above I've had a chance to think a little more deeply about the ramifications of what Neely discusses.
    There are many price based strategies, support, resistance, channels, etc. There are also pattern based strategies, W's M's head and shoulders etc. I'm also aware that there any number of time cycle theories.
    EWT combines price and pattern into a valuable tool. However with the time dimension that Neely adds we have a framework that encompasses a confluence of all three. This would seem to me to be an extremely powerful and valuable tool.

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    1. Just fyi. I counted up from 2002 to 2007, and counted down from 2007 to 2009. I find only one wave that does not conform to Neely's time requirements in an impulse. That is the minor 4th wave triangle of Intermediate (C) of Primary ((4)). It only missed by a little, but it misses. And if it's not a fourth wave triangle it misses by a lot.

      So, accept the time consumption requirements as guidelines - very good guidelines - but still guidelines.

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    2. Thanks Joe,
      On another matter, since y has exceeded the upper boundru of the down channel from the bull market top can we consider it to be no longer relevant? This is a great post by the way. I think the forward looking what if's will be appreciated by all of the readers here.

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    3. Yes, you can consider the preliminary down trend line to be a thing of the past.

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  6. Do you use anything like fibonacci to predict the end of wave 5? Since wave 3 was extended should we expect the current wave 5 to be same magnitude as wave 1?, so end at appx. 2778. Thanks.

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  7. Joe, you make very valid arguments relating to the missing evidence of a top that Hochberg mentioned in the STU. Thank you for the that. I also tend to wait for the market to commit to me, before I commit to the market.
    His rationale relates to the "tame internal strength of the past two sessions making it more probable that Minor wave 2 is ending", and it very well could come to pass. He's stopped showing counts on the NDX 100 and admitted he's not sure about the structure. I find that frustrating because when a count gets complex and it doesn't work out as planned, he gives you a very general analysis on things. The count on AMZN published in the middle of November, didn't work out and there radio silence after that...

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    1. I have written them about that and received some very unsatisfactory replies.

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    2. I am in same boat. In fact, I've spoken to Robert Kelly on the phone after debating a few of his counts on Pro Services. Mine turned out to be right :-)
      The reason I indulge in their services is purely from a back testing point of view. One thing he mentioned to me and I actually asked you about it a few days ago, is the minimum distance requirement of wave c of a flat.
      He mentioned that his statisticians have never found a wave c of a flat to be less than 70% retracement of wave b. The EWP does not go into percentages of specifics in this regard and so my assumption was always to say that Wave C must share some common price territory with Wave A. If you have any thoughts at all, I 'd love to hear them. Have a great weekend!

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  8. Thanks Joe for great post over the weekend! Monday gap a great opportunity to take some profits. But my trading sense tells me we will see a fresh high in 2019. Just my gut feel

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  9. Very Nice post ET ! Speaking about timing retracements, am seeing some interesting timing ratios on SPX daily. Time from 10/3 high to 10/29 low is same as 10/29 low to 11/23 low. aka its time 100% retracement/extension. Time zone from 10/3 high to 10/29 of 1.382 and 1.618 is coming out to be between 12/4 to 12/10.

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    1. Also projection of low to high time zone from 10/29 to 11/7 from 11/23 gives confluence with above 12/4 to 12/10.

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  10. and it appears markets on 12/5 will be closed for the Bush funeral - or at least I am reading that on some news outlets

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  11. hi joe question
    how long will the phase ((II)) last?
    thank you for your article
    good Sunday

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    1. ..depends how long the b wave takes, and if it becomes a triangle or not. Should be over before the end of December, and could be over sooner than that.

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  12. I'm a visual learner, so very helpful thanks.

    'I had showed' You meant either 'I showed' or 'I had shown'.

    I'd have gone with peaceably, rather than 'peacefully', as it's one's self being at peace, no third parties involved.

    And there's an 'ly' missing on 'interesting' earlier in the post.

    I noted you corrected an 'insite' in a previous post, good to see, I hope you are open to receive feedback in the same manner you provide it?

    Kind regards.

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    1. All corrections made. Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure if you missed the capital "D" on Doji or not, since it might be a name or is it an adjective? Anyway, I went with capital "D".

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    2. I'd be a good proof-reader, but no-one's perfect. Let me know if you need that for your book, I'm old-school. Cheers.

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    3. Sorry, I don't know whether doji needs a capital D or not.

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    4. Since we are in the "grammatical error" part of the comments :P , let me remind you a big one, that you constantly make even if some months ago an English teacher (!) wrote about it here and corrected you.

      You always write "it's" when you should write "its".
      Its (my, your, his, her, ITS, our, your, their)
      It's (short for "it is")

      Thanks for the post, anyway ;-)

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    5. Yup. I got the first paragraph correct, but missed it later on. Will try to do better.

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  13. I thought I'd share my weekly notes on trend. 4 week 127 bars with divergence EWO falling 13 34 rising. Weekly EWO below 0 and falling 13 34 falling. Daily to much chop to use other than direction 13 34 rising price above.
    It would appear we have a major degree down trend or possible 4th wave. Are we going to take time to bring the EWO 4 week back to 0 line? Right now our 4 week balance line sits at 2430, if that holds maybe we are in wave A of a triangle. Ok that is in the future but with long term charts down going to be hard to get bullish on upward price movement.

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  14. Joe,
    I have noticed that while the x wave of the SPX didn't reach the 90% retrace level of w, the Dow,Comp,and the Rut did. Would one be reasonable in thinking then that the SPX is the strongest index and therefore y would exceed w by a larger margin than the other indexes since the other indexes qualify as a flat and the SPX doesn't?

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    1. I think the better way to say it is that the markets that made 90% down can have five-waves-up. SPX should only have three-waves-up, but a triangle or diagonal for one or the other might make it hard to sort out.

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  15. Joe, I've reviewed the Neely link you posted and taken notes. I think I grasp the basics.

    Question: when counting SPX waves, do you:

    1) Always count ES waves as a matter of course (and incorporate the "hidden" waves in the SPX count, not referring to them if they don't change the cash count)?

    2) Or: count ES waves when you are uncertain or can't get SPX cash waves to work out?

    3) Or: count both ES and cash waves every time and compare them?

    ('Count' refers to price, time and post-pattern behavior.)

    Thank you.

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    1. ES is tradeable, SPX is not. Can count ES for trades or to confirm cash degrees.

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    2. Thank you Joe. I'll count both to the extent I can get a free read of ES. I'm asking what is the most logical and efficient approach (while staying flexible in case of market surprises).

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  16. Joe, Neely speaks of wave 2 taking at least as long, therefore more than 100% (time) as wave 1. Yet you mentioned, the current ((ii)) made the minimum requirement of time at 38%.
    My experience is in line with your view. Did I misinterpret Neely?
    Thanks You.

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    1. You did not misinterpret Neely. The time requirement is why I am allowing the (w)-(x)-(y) count, and a major Elliott wave service is not. 'Minimum' is not necessarily 'typical' or ideal'.

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  17. I wonder if the futures will hold the pop overnight? They are only 15 points from exceeding the w top.

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    1. Tom, Way I understand it is futures gaps always close.

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  18. getting better if you are asking ....

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  19. joe how do you feel about neely thinking waves 2 and 4 should not retrace much more than 61.8

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    1. It's not a question of how I feel. It's what's measurements show.

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  20. Tim, see this previous post...

    http://studyofcycles.blogspot.com/2018/11/confidence-level-of-down-market.html

    Joe

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  21. Based on the large rise in the futures overnight, I have determined that this newer count does not break degree rules in the futures. So I am starting a new post that you can view on the next day's work.

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