Saturday, November 13, 2021

Devil's Advocate - 2

In the effort to play "Devil's Advocate" the issue that bothered me most was the first move off of the 2020 Covid low. On daily charts, it looks like a 'three'. And it certainly was another one of these 'grinding' waves up. I took a very long hard look at it this morning, and asked the question what could be the error? The only "Elliott compliant" count I could determine is a slightly convoluted Minute extended first wave within an Extended Minor first wave. While I don't care for it much, there are no Elliott Wave rules violations I can find. The ES 12-hr chart is below, not cash, to insure that all price movement and time is accounted for.


Again, I freely admit this count was done after the fact. It is done in an attempt to learn and to see if there any degree violations. As far as I can tell there are not. Wave minute ((ii)) is the longest correction in price and time, and it is the larger degree wave after minuet (iv).

The wedge shape is clearly outlined. There is a thrust over the wedge which results in a minute fifth wave which is shorter in price and time than minute ((iii)). So, the overall sequence is ((v))<((iii))<x((i)). And that does fit the extended first wave guidelines. There is no overlap between minute ((iv)) and minute x((i)). And, no part of minute ((iv)) travels into wave minute ((ii)) territory.

Next explored is the Neely 0 - 2 trend line. And in this case, the 0 - ((ii)) trend line clearly cuts off a third wave ((iii)).

So, if this count is correct, the conclusion I come to is this: the 0 - 2 trend line works for the case where wave three is the extended wave in the sequence. (This is similar to the situation for The Eight Fold Path Method). But because in the extended first wave case the pattern is expected to form a wedge, then the 0 -2 trend line may not, and likely will not show all of wave 3 above it, and that makes sense from the shape of the pattern about to develop.

It needs to be clear, I do not fault Glenn Neely for making the generalization. Rather, it is highly likely that there were an insufficient number of extended first wave cases to study to recognize how there could be a difference.

P.S. I have shown the above count at the Minor wave 1 level. It could very easily be upgraded to the Intermediate (1) level simply by adjusting all the wave degrees up one level, and so in the lower right it shows or (1).

This is the second post this weekend, and yesterday's post should be read to better understand this one.

Have a good rest of the weekend.

TraderJoe

46 comments:

  1. Thanks for taking the time to go back through this! Makes a big difference. And, as to your observation on the 0-2 TL, this was precisely the point I was making in this chart I posted yesterday:

    https://www.mediafire.com/view/3w1yc1s9jnf83kn/extended_1st.PNG/file

    And in further thought, let's suppose we have a breach of the 0-2 TL by a third wave that grinds initially, but then has an extended 5th within that sees the slope greatly increase. In doing so, this third wave becomes longer than the 1st (no more extended 1st), but still breach of 0-2 TL. Could this be seen as occurring as well?

    Thanks!!

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    1. I would note that waves 3-5 finished just shy of .618 x extended 1st wave.

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  2. ET, If you go with an impulse, how does it go with a larger picture?

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    1. It is way too early to say, but IFF there is an impulse up, then it would likely constitute 'three waves up' based on the lengths of the waves. See sketch (not an official count). If we ignore degree for a moment to count on wave 'shape', and, since we have not seen a true diagonal in the overall sequence, yet, I wonder if something like this might be possible. It would be exceptionally hard to track.

      https://www.tradingview.com/x/cF1gBWjS/

      The degree issues are the reason I still prefer the Primary ((B)) wave up, but the market will be the arbiter. "Fear & Greed" are quite high, as are AAII bulls. So, I don't want to drink the cool-aid just yet.

      TJ

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  3. SPX (mthly) - Here's the FP combined models applied via a log chart (due to broad range of price).

    https://www.mediafire.com/view/kkmg420tl176nus/FP_log.PNG/file

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    1. As I can see the conversation [possibly] heading this way, I'll throw this in now - (from the Neely website, Q&A)

      https://www.mediafire.com/view/j6fqgh0zm4pv9uf/Neelylog.PNG/file

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    2. Someone posted a few weeks ago that he had called a top emphatically. I do not know this to be the case though.

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    3. One difference between (2) and (4), one is running, the other is not.

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    4. One problem with this and Avi’s count. IFF wave (1) ended in 2010 then wave (5) seems way to long. The length of (1) is 553. 553 times 1.618 = 895. Add that to bottom of wave (4) = 3087. The count would seem wrong. Avi has said w5 max is usually 1.618 of w1?

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    5. I think that's why log scale is used, due to the diff in price over the span of the 5 waves.

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  4. hello ET

    i notice that wave minute ((iv)) is extremely short, a lot shorter then the waves of lower degree in the extended wave minute ((i)) , why is this not a degree problem?

    sincerely
    KaVi

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    Replies
    1. It is 'something' of a degree problem, but not stated as you do. Neely 'typically' says for waves to be considered 'of the same degree', meaning, say waves ((iv)) vs ((iii)), then they should vary by 30% as a typical minimum. These don't, and it is one reason I don't care for the count even though it is 'Elliott compliant' in some respects. It's another way of saying that fourth wave 'is a lot shorter' as you have.

      TJ

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  5. SPX (mthly) - some measures for reference -

    https://www.mediafire.com/view/jlukgj6r71c8ca6/Flats.PNG/file

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  6. The low of 2020 according to T.J's count was a primary A wave of a cycle 4 corrective wave. Not sure how the third of a primary A compares with third of primary 3. I would expect LESS momentum, as compared with a primary C third for instance.

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  7. And now for something completely different - (but interesting)

    SPX (dly) 3PDh - Lindsay Tri-Day method

    https://www.mediafire.com/view/fkwh1p46qblf0ns/TriDayApplied.png/file

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  8. Your iii of (iii) of x((i)) is 7 waves. It's not an impulse. Doesn't subdivide by 5.

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    1. I considered there might be an expanded flat or a triangle before the end of the wave; that sometimes make 7 waves. Again, I don't like the count much.

      TJ

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    2. You might want to go back and take a look at your post on 4/29/2020. You posted 2 charts of the wave we're referring to now, and on the chart, you wrote, "very hard to decipher inside here." The wave formation was so messed up, with overlaps all over the place, that you used a line chart to try to eliminate some of the overlaps. However, even a line chart couldn't make it countable as an impulse.

      When I look at waves, I know they have to either be impulsive or corrective. If it's impossible to count as an impulse wave, then by default it's corrective. That wave can't be counted as an impulse.

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    3. ..yep; you're so good at it you never post a chart! Further your supposed idea can be logically disproved: what is a double-top? what is a double-bottom? 1-2 or 4-5? 4-5 or 1-2? Please stop with the false excellence which never appears.

      TJ

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  9. I really don't trust structures, especially in SP's, where Wave 4 is smaller in size, and especially in time, than Wave 2.

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    1. ..you don't have to trust anything. You are free to do what you will. But the Principle of Alternation only says that 4 and 2 will 'differ'. It does 'not' say that it means wave four is always longer in time. And when it is shorter in a time a reason you may not 'trust' it is that likely a wedge is forming which will break soon - just as this one did.

      TJ

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    2. In some structures a shorter 4th is in fact a requirement, as in an ED.

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    3. I don't see how this one did ! What is wave 4 on this chart ...like 2 or 4 points ?! This looks more like making the data fit the count. No program or human eye out there would be able to identify that swing as a wave of any kind, considering the size of the structure.

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  10. Elliot wave is about predicting probabilities and magnitude of moves. The original rules allow for many possible counts at any time and you have to assign likelihood. If you want to impose your own rules at that point I think you are just adjusting the probabilities downward of counts that have degree violations or 0_2 TL break. I do not think you should EVER discard a valid count because of rules you add to original rules UNLESS you are building your own framework. That's neowave I guess for Neely. Maybe Joe it's time to recognize you are not counting Elliot wave but your own waves based on a variety of insight and knowledge. It's your subset of Elliot wave. It may be better it may be worse but I applaud your efforts

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    1. 1) whose 'original' rules? Elliott's, or Frost & Prechter's? They are different. 2) Remember, Elliott counted to the 1929 top with an 'extra' a-b- move, which Prechter later said was invalid. And yet, just the opposite of Elliott, but using Elliott's idea of 'orthodox top', Neely said 'every major move should end with a truncation'. Where is the truncation at the 1929 top? 3) Neely says every wave two should be longer in time than wave one. Yet, how is 1929 - 1932, 'longer in time' than 1921 - 1929??!! Frost & Prechter did not impose such a time requirement.

      Do you see what's going on here? I am very well aware of the wave signatures for the Dow back to 1868. I am trying to sort out which rules have merit, and which do not.

      I am not - at the moment - or in the past - trying to 'add' rules. Rather The Eight Fold Path Method (notice it is called a Method, and not a 'rule') is a 'pattern recognition system' most applicable when the third wave extends. But, it still can not determine if wave four will be 38% or 50%. The 0 - 2 guideline is a useful 'tool', but it now appears that the tool may not work in the case where wave 1 is the extended wave. Is it useful to know in what situations a tool does not work? I think so. And, thanks ..

      TJ

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  11. What we are seeing in the charts imo are repeat flagging patterns which genrally presage a continuation of the short-term tren and that trend remains up.

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  12. BUGS - courtesy of SentimenTrader

    https://www.mediafire.com/view/69wkgmyh7v7fvqh/BUGS.PNG/file

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  13. NQ 4-Hr: just fyi - the NQ now has upward overlap just like the ES. Watch the invalidation levels for the previously shown expanding diagonal.

    https://www.tradingview.com/x/eHo4Cdbb/

    TJ

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  14. SPY 15-min: here is how things are opening.

    https://www.tradingview.com/x/Sx4F7ygA/

    TJ

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  15. SPX (2day) - L-L-H (Lindsay) -

    https://www.mediafire.com/view/nr84p3q4l6behwr/LLHnow.PNG/file

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  16. SPY 15-min: price and RSI broke modestly lower on this time frame.

    https://www.tradingview.com/x/VIdnCHKp/

    TJ

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  17. SPY 30m - after last close, showing pos. HD, target 468.62. Intact until/unless close below 466.60 occurs first.

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  18. Buck up (dly) - DXY trying to complete doji continuation today. Has reached 2nd HD target (but will need to close and hold above).

    https://www.mediafire.com/view/eg1g995hftk0tac/Buckup.PNG/file

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    Replies
    1. Weekly channel on dxy staying to break up. Interesting considering now gold is looking bullish

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  19. SPY 15-min; near the close - SPY seems to be having some trouble holding the channel line. First breach of the channel line lower.

    https://www.tradingview.com/x/utVBxpUT/

    TJ

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  20. SPY30m e.o.d.

    https://www.mediafire.com/view/pfl28n6e43qby7t/SPy30meod.PNG/file

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  21. Hello TJ,
    Can this be valid? Japan has theoretically been in a cycle "B" wave during this advance. IMHO
    Thanks

    https://i.postimg.cc/4yFXH8Xh/Screenshot-5.png

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    1. Nope, not likely valid. "Usually" Y and W waves are related a close Fibonacci relationship like 1:1, among other problems.

      TJ

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  22. TJ another count....valid???

    Thanks
    https://i.postimg.cc/7ZhmNKwZ/Screenshot-6.png

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    1. something like that is 'possible', but just not with the symbols you used. And you would need to define the relationship between (V) and the A,B,C down. What larger wave is that at the end of C?

      I highly suggest if you are interested to read The Elliott Wave Principle by Frost & Prechter to learn more about wave labeling.

      TJ

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    2. Thanks TJ, I would find it immensely interesting since you say the (V) and (A),(B) with (C) down to follow,if you would just post a hypothetical chart with the correct labeling. I have come to really appreciate your work.
      Also I think this count might actually fit the ongoing Fed and political shananigans.

      Thanks

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    3. My feeble attempt at re labeling.

      https://i.postimg.cc/hvBFp0Ff/Screenshot-7.png

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    4. And then you have to ask if there is anything that could bring in a top soon?
      A 3 day chart of the ZB bond contract. There is another service that counts the present wave as a wave 5 down. Maybe but this wave structure measures down to the 110 area. FWIW

      https://i.postimg.cc/rsVcNLtD/Screenshot-8.png

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  23. A new post is started for the next day.
    TJ

    ReplyDelete