While we are waiting for a more complete description of recent down side price movement in the ES daily futures, I thought I would tackle this issue. (Yes, so far prices have declined as expected).
Logic is necessary for making analytical decisions. And if market analysis is to provide a basis for market decisions, then logic must be used. A core principle of logic is that two things can not be the same unless they are identical in every way. Let's take as an example, two mechanical springs. IF two springs have the same part number, coil diameter, coil length, wire gauge, and tension when stretched five inches, then we may say "they are the same". IF they do not share all of these properties, then they simply are not said to be the same.
Let me at the outset distinguish, "being the same" from being a member of a set or of a category. Five types of plants as in 1) an oak, 2) a maple, 3) a pine, 4) a birch, and 5) a willow are all clearly not identically the same. Yet, they are a member of the set of trees, or the classification of trees. I am not referring to things which are members of sets or categories here. I am referring to knowing when a pattern is one pattern and NOT another.
Applying this same logic to Elliott Wave analysis, we need to find a way to distinguish clearly these contracting types of patterns.
Elliott Wave Logic - Two Types of Contracting Triple Zigzags |
Each of these two patterns can have zigzags for each of the numbered or lettered legs. And yet, they are both contracting patterns - or volatility compression patterns. In practice, how is one to distinguish these patterns? The Elliott Wave Principle by Frost & Prechter sites "guidelines" for the diagonal as having waves ((ii)) and ((iv)) retrace between 62 - 81% of the prior wave.
This analysis is now suggesting that term "guideline" for this measurement is too soft, or too inconclusive to have practical use in decision-making. In the markets we need to make good decisions or it can cost us money. Therefore, I am proposing - based on logic alone - that any triple zigzag compression pattern that does not meet the 62% retrace requirement for the second wave can only be labeled as the triple zigzag - when over the prior wave 3 or A high - and not be labeled as a diagonal. In these cases the pattern would most likely be a B wave or an X wave.
What makes the difference? The measurements - just like the tension measurement when the spring in the above example is stretched the five inches. Hopefully, this can prevent unintended incorrect labeling of waves in the future.
Have a good start to the evening.
TraderJoe
And what if anything did Elliot say about a minimum wave 2 correction in an impulse? Only guidelines? Above I guess you are further restricting the ability to count motive waves, correct?, Thanks Joe
ReplyDeleteQuote from "The Wave Principle", 1938, by R.N. Elliott, regarding wave two:
Delete"As a general rule, it may be assumed that wave three will reach a higher level than wave one, and that wave five will go higher than wave three. Likewise, wave four should not carry to as low a level as is attained by wave two. The second wave rarely cancels all of the ground gained by wave one, and wave four rarely cancels all of the ground gained by wave three. The completed five wave movement in other words, is diagonal in character as Illustrated in Fig 6".
By "diagonal" here, Elliott meant only traveling from lower left on the page to upper right. Then,
"To properly observe market movement, and hence to segregate the individual waves of such of movement, it is necessary that the movement - as it progresses - be channeled between parallel lines."
He wrote about the parallel - which he considers "necessary" in his own words. Not mine, not Prechters.
TJ
He didn't say anything about the relative lengths or times of the waves, wouldn't parallel channel make the waves similar in length?
DeleteI was really asking about wave 2 of impulse not diagonal but appreciate everything you are providing thanks
Delete@marc 10:38.. I was afraid you would mis-read the term 'diagonal'. You did, even though I explained it carefully. Elliott here was referring to an "impulse wave." His description of how it travels from lower left on the page to upper right on the page (i.e. traveling the diagonal of the page) is unfortunate. Again, he is referring above to an 'impulse' wave.
DeleteTJ
Just saw this... Lol .. thanks
Deletehttps://schrts.co/WDraNBTf
ReplyDeleteVIX - closing prices show it running into resistance at 20 - 21
ES (2day) - might this be an application?
ReplyDeletehttps://www.mediafire.com/view/au8kocxvspemyxf/NonDiag.PNG/file
Yes, and many more at smaller degree. Thanks for illustrating.
DeleteTJ
Given this past post -
ReplyDeletehttp://studyofcycles.blogspot.com/2021/02/above-786-yet-prior-wedge-worked-out.html
This might raise an interesting question -
https://www.mediafire.com/view/hlvb0yjr6fyge8e/Notdiag.PNG/file
..yep, once again, without the 62% or better retraces the start of the pattern was never exceeded lower in less time.
DeleteTJ
But "usually" is not "always". Force to a rule "always" is a good dilemma.
ReplyDeletefrom Prechter EWT book:
"Waves 2 and 4 each usually retrace .66 to .81 of the preceding wave."
right .. "dilemmas" don't help make good trading decisions. I am now suggesting this one should be a 'rule', not a 'guideline'. I mean how far do you 'bend' a guideline? 50%, 38.2%?
DeleteTJ
A question that might arise is when the .618 retrace for 2nd wave is not met, but yet the (now assumed) wxyxz fully retraces.
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, then perhaps this ties in with Neely's triple zz, where its either Terminal (fully retraces), or a leg of a Triangle (likely its longest), which can't fully retrace.
Something to ponder ...
Here are a bevvy of 1-min diagonals - each with the requisite 62% retrace or better on this morning's chart. I'm especially proud of that last upward expanding diagonal, as it was fully retraced in less time.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.tradingview.com/x/oBwEbycD/
TJ
..price has 'already' met the minimum requirement for wave v lower, although it certainly can go lower. It think this down wave is a larger (a) wave within a sideways triangle, with (b) and (c) to come.
DeleteTJ
do you accept that (2) is below the beginning of (1) on the second diagonal?
Deleteno! definitely not. I was working so quickly to illustrate for you all that I just tagged the wrong bar. The correct bar is the lowest bar to the right, and the wave two low is 'equal' low, definitely the >62% retrace.
DeleteTJ
..here is a close-up in SPY .. I was plotting using ES futures at the time which had an exact double-bottom. SPY still meets the requirements.
Deletehttps://www.tradingview.com/x/3CptRdQg/
TJ
Yes, I understood that. Thank you.
DeleteES 30-min: three waves up, so far. Lots of overlaps. Possible triangle or double combination.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.tradingview.com/x/3lOMdv6r/
TJ
SPY 1-min: another potential pattern of interest from the 1-min chart.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.tradingview.com/x/gvCzqI3G/
TJ
SPY 1-min; potential triangle devolves into a potential flat wave with no failure at the high. Not having a triangle here may mean down move is not over yet.
DeleteTJ
SPY 1-min: chart update - looks like 'flat' wave.
Deletehttps://www.tradingview.com/x/izmgb1mA/
TJ
👍 great work. Thanks
DeleteES 5-min (RTH) ..mimics SPY.. is beginning to break and back-test trend lines. I have a 'wave-counting-stop' on a triangle at the high.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.tradingview.com/x/4Er1NCb1/
TJ
ES daily - just fyi - not sure if it will occur, but IFF ES ends the day in this range or lower, it might lose the embedded daily slow stochastic reading.
ReplyDeleteTJ
General wave "paths" - informational
ReplyDeletehttps://www.mediafire.com/view/tim38q2qti0o4ma/Models.PNG/file
..what is the meaning of FP in "FP Model". Keep in mind some of us are not familiar with what you may be. My guess is "Fibonacci Progression", but I'm not sure. Thanks in advance.
DeleteTJ
Very interesting! Particularly in view of recent discussion of EW rules for 2 and 4 wave retracements. The 4900- 5200 range has been upside target for awhile now by some very good analysts.
DeleteGW - this is the path I have been following. But I’m sure it breaks many EW rules. The 0-2 trend line breaks through wave 3.
DeleteFibonacci Pinball. Could be mistaken, but I think the 0-2 TL is a Neelyism.
DeleteI can play 'Devil's Advocate' too. This one is based on MACD, the low retrace for the first wave, and the Principle of Alternation.
Deletehttps://www.tradingview.com/x/jVerD0fS/
TJ
TJ - a flat wave right now would be nice alteration and mess up a lot of people playing break outs. Seasonality is against this idea though
DeleteCRB/SPY (mthly) - update
ReplyDeletehttps://www.mediafire.com/view/78piz5jgz2i1myj/CRBSPY.PNG/file
Seeing the great doubts that arise in recent days I wonder what timeframes should be ignored. Do we need to ignore waves for less than 60, 30, 15, 5 or 1 minute? I say this because many wave counts outthere that look right in a higher timeframe can be invalidated if we look at the internal waves. With or without considering degrees.
ReplyDeleteI also see that ET often looks at line-charts, where you don’t see the highs and lows of the bars, to eliminate “noise”.
Are valid the small timeframes or are they “noise” caused by the HFT?
Neely says he analyzes “top to down,” that is, first the top timeframes and never goes down to intraday. Do we have to pay attention or not to intraday waves?
I think a larger question has to do with a core tenet of EWT theory, namely that herd sentiment is the only arbiter of ptice.
Delete@Tachy .. Central Banks admit they play a game of 'counter-cyclical policy'. They know there is a business cycle. They fight it to stave off deep recessions. Ben Bernanke admitted this. Powell admitted this. I think the more important questions are, "Can there be a financial 'perpetual motion' machine?; Can an economy grow forever?".
DeleteTJ
Further breakdowns within the above General wave "paths" -
ReplyDeletehttps://www.mediafire.com/view/lyjrzq0pnynnm55/Breakdown.PNG/file